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2008-07-12 - 12.02am��previous entry��next entry
Comments about Quiverfull thoughts...
Well, I'm thankful that somebody has actually commented on the subject of family planning at one of my diaries after my recent posts about my thoughts on it. I was distinctly feeling the cold wind and the tumbleweeds in that dept! Now three people have posted comments here at this diary that leave my heart heavy, and make me wonder if that's how ALL my friends are thinking (given their silence, which come to think of it might be expected if they are friends who reeeally don't like what I'm writing about and don't want to rock the boat or something).
It's so late, and I'm so tired tonight, and tireder still looking at the messages and knowing I need to respond. I just want to respond so that it's done and then go to bed, because I wouldn't want to have it hanging over me for another day. I have basically prayed that God would guard me as I respond so that I don't speak wrongly or with any sort of a bad attitude. Because when I'm tired (or feeling slightly defensive, for example!) then I'm prone to those things, I guess.
I'll just copy and paste the three comments and then that'll make it easier. Sorry to be so boring and matter-of-fact and unlively. I feel that way right now.
Comment #1:
Alice -
I'm sorry, but I have to ask you a question about your reasoning in this most recent blog, and the one on Arthur's mummy.
If God has answered your needs because he loves you, you're faithful, and he's "on our case," then why are there women in this world, faithful to God, who starve to death along side their innocent children, in spite of desperate need? Why are there entire families, devestated by natural disaster, left homeless, hungry and suffering despite their love and faith in God?
What makes your family so much more deserving?
I'm not trying to be rude Alice, I just had to ask how you can rationalize those two realities. I've read your blog for a VERY long time, (pre Arthur!), and I'm starting to see a shift in your thinking that disturbs me. I know you are a VERY intelligent woman.
Please think things through Alice.
I'm not here to attack you, but I've left my name out of it because I'm not here to confront you and start an argument. If I had your email, I would send this to you privately.
Blessings to you and your family.
~A friend
I am not sure what I am supposed to do with this comment really. The questions are not fair and I can't answer them! It makes me think of a school test that has trick questions that I can't possibly answer, and is thus I can't get a good grade and it's really frustrating! How can I possibly have the answers to the questions about why people suffer in the world - good, loving people; children and babies; Christians who trust in God? It's not fair to ask me to give an answer to that question! Who am I that I should know the answer?! Noooobody at all.
Sarah asked me pretty much the same question 2.5 months ago, and I apologise for the copy-and-pasting-ness of it all, but it's easier for me to just do that rather than wade through it all again. Here's her question, and my answer:
"Alice, I'm intellectally curious to know, since you believe that God will give you the right number of children despite your lack of money, why He gives children to women in third-world countries who die or starve themselves (or their babies do) as a result? Where does taking personal responsibility and exercising free will fit with your belief? I'm not criticising your views; I'm just really curious to understand how they align with the bigger picture and the idea (that even Christian people accept, I think) that everyone has free will."
Sarah, I know it�s a maaaajor cop-out, but I honestly don�t know how to answer your question! I don�t know the answer to why there are people starving in the world and, more agonising still, babies and children who are hurting and dying out there. I can�t fathom the reasons, and I think it�s one of the many things we just aren�t meant to understand here on earth. I am waiting to understand it when I finally finish my time here and meet God and understand all the things he does, which is what the Bible tells me will happen. I can only try to live my own life as much in faith as possible, and try to discern God�s will for me, and to live it out faithfully. He has totally given us free will, like you say. I am choosing to use my free will to give the control to God over how many children we have. I could also freely choose to decide on a set number of kiddos that we would like, and once we reach that number, to take the necessary steps to prevent any further babies from being conceived. Not that this would stop God if he knew he was not finished blessing us with children, of course! ;) But I have decided I don�t want to do that. I do see the arguments against it, but I don�t feel a need to be responsible for when my womb is opened and closed, when God is the one who opens and closes wombs, and brings forth new life. Believe me, if he has planned that we�ll only have three children, all the TTC in the world is not going to get us another baby (and there WOULD be all the TTC in the world, you know me! I may be a Christian who likes to believe she would follow God�s plan for her life, but I would find it hard to comply with God�s will over this one! I�d be stubborn, and rebellious, and try to work to have that fourth baby no matter what, and ignore God�s voice on the subject, and God would be patient, and patient, and loving, and patient, and patient some more, and eventually I�d get it, and stop trying to walk against his plan for my family! *sigh*). I know a sweet lady who reads this diary who used birth control and still had three children, each spaced two years apart, hehe! God is in control. And I�m excited to hand him the reins and see what he�ll do to bless us! (unless of course he says, �You�re done!� and then there will be rein-snatching and it will get ugly, but yeah, I WILL give him my whole heart over it because I love him and desire nothing more than to do God�s will, because I KNOW that he plans to prosper me and not to harm me, and to give me a hope and a future (and by that I know he means my eternal future, not just here on earth). His plan for me, and for each of my children, and my husband, is outstandingly better than any that we could make or hope for. I know that the Bible tells me that if I love the Lord my God and seek to follow him wholeheartedly, and live my life for him, then he will satisfy the desires of my heart and I (and my children) will not be in want. We don�t have any money, but I DO believe God will provide for our needs if we are walking in faith and trusting him.
Ooh I just noticed how that came true!! :) God DID provide for our needs as we trusted in him, money and all! I love that! :)
I just can't answer questions that humans aren't meant to know the answer to. I'm amazed that the question was asked, "What makes your family so much more deserving?" Did you think that was my view?!?! Because, if so, I have made a major boo-boo in my communication somewhere! I hope I have never implied that myself or my family are deserving of ANYTHING, let alone more deserving than anyone else. If it were not for Jesus Christ I would deserve death. That's it. Nothing else. Even if I was super nice and good! ;)
I really and honestly do not understand the question (not as intelligent as you thought, perhaps?! ;) ) - am I supposed to be less deserving of children and blessings and a safe and healthy life than those who are out there suffering and following God? Or more? Or just the same? I am not sure what is being implied by the question. I know you were not trying to be rude, but we (Neil and I) are thinking that particular question had a nasty edge, and we can't understand why you would ask it. Putting our trust in God to bless us has nothing whatsoever to do with anything else! I can't think how it has somehow become linked to the "more (or less) deserving" issue, or us allegedly thinking of ourselves as such. I'm really confused!
Well, I have just had a break a few minutes ago to resettle Nathan when he woke, and that gave me time to think and pray, and get less defensive about the whole comments thing :) And read them to Neil, which always helps me. Sharing things that stress me with Neil is like a big weight off, and he often helps me see things that I'm not seeing myself. But anyway, I feel less heavy of heart now! And I'll carry on responding to the comments :)
I can't possibly rationalize my blessed life against oh I don't know, natural disasters in the third world with hundreds and thousands of precious people dying horribly. Again, what a question to ask?! Can ANYONE rationalize that in any way, Christian or non-Christian?! Does not being able to rationalize it mean that I should feel guilty and never assume to hope that God will ever bless me with anything because others suffer so? No, I am not more important. I don't know why others suffer while I do not. I don't want to gloat in my non-suffering, OR try to even out the levels by trying to get some suffering going on in my own life so as not to feel so guilty (or something?! Still confused!).
The only thing I know about life is that this is the tip of the iceburg, according to the Bible. Like the first breath a baby takes (just that first inhale and exhale), if you can imagine just that tiny fraction of ALL of the breaths they will take throughout their lifetime. Life here is just that. Fleeting. The rest, afterwards, is eternal. Suffering may exist here (and I will need to do like a million-year Bible study to get more of an understanding on why that is) but it does not exist afterwards. Ever. Only the opposite exists. Unless you go to the place where there is nothing BUT suffering, forever.
Those who cling to God in this earthly life, cling to him for REAL, eternal freedom from suffering, not the "freedom" I currently live in. From what I've read of Christians who have undergone terrible heartbreaking suffering and seen awful things happen to their families, the suffering does not mean that God has abandoned them or is inflicting horrible things on them. Rather it seems, he is their hope and their strength to survive each moment, and they know that in clinging to him till death overcomes them (even in suffering right to death), they will have won the race on this earth, and the hope and prosperous future that he promised them is finally proven as they step into that eternal reward for their faith.
That is my take on it, based on what the Bible teaches me, and what I have read and heard (in terms of books, articles, and interviews, and so on) of Christians suffering around the world. The book of Job in the Bible is a great source of teaching on suffering - specifically someone who is incredibly faithful to God. He still clings to God throughout. God blesses him with more than he ever had before he lost everything, at the end.
Anyway, I am probably getting off the point now. But I guess I just wanted to somewhat defend myself on the questions asked in that comment - I can't answer them and it seems unfair to ask them - I'm not sure of the point of asking, what is intended by that. I'm sorry to read that a couple of people are saying that the changes in the way I'm thinking are disturbing. That concerns me, and instantly makes me want to step back and look at myself to see if there is something I've missed. I don't want to be going down a dodgy path!
But please know that of course I have been thinking things through! You sort of imply that I am not doing so, or clearly not enough, otherwise I wouldn't be going down this crazy path of thinking! ;) I think I have said several times already in various posts, that I have been weighing this matter up, thinking it through, praying about it (with Neil sometimes, and on my own a LOT), reading, reading, reading about it - crazy hours of reading, all different views on the matter as well. I'm slightly insulted that you think I would leap into such a big decision without thinking it through properly! But I will let it slide :) Just because my enormous amount of thinking, praying and researching has led me to a conclusion that you don't think is right, it doesn't mean that I haven't thought it through properly, or even that it has led me to the wrong conclusion! I already knew that a zillion people would disagree with me on it. It doesn't make them right. OR ME RIGHT, please hear me clearly! I don't think anybody is wrong or right. The only important thing is that I feel that this is right for my family at this time - nobody else's! Mine. And a lot of thought and prayer and research has gone into that decision.
Lorraine asks some excellent questions in comment #2:
"Are you sure you're not using scripture as an excuse to justify what you want? I really don't mean to put the spotlight on you, I know you hate controversy and to be put on the defense. Please understand that I only ask in a lightly skeptical manner and as a point to mull over. You want a large family, and if that's what you and Neil wish to do then go for it. It's your right, and you don't need any other reason. But what I mean is, if the Bible had passages that indicated to keeping family sizes small (and no other changes in scriptures & teachings in this hypothetical situation), would you still feel as strongly about having your family size be what God wants? I just get the feeling you might be latching to the quiverful ideas because you already want more children so badly, and this is backing you up to Neil who seems to waver a lot on the issue. Is your faith truly driving you, or your desire for more children?"
What food for thought, Lorraine! :) I will also be storing away the phrase "I only ask in a lightly skeptical manner" for future use, hehe! I like that one! :) These are GOOD questions and Neil is glad you asked them of me. In particular I am taking away the last question to think and pray on tonight before bed and tomorrow. I want to be sure I am following God and not my own motives.
You are right, it IS hard to see where the line is sometimes. The way I came across the quiverfull thing is that I read a LOT of large family blogs. I guess I started reading the first few of those about 18 months ago maybe? And you know how it is - I followed link after link after link over time, and discovered more, similar blogs. I didn't even notice at first that any of these families were not taking any control whatsoever in the timing or number of their children. It took me ages to figure it out! And then one of them blogged about it and I read it with my jaw hanging (as many reading this can probably relate to, haha!), and I read the MANY comments and through those found even more blogs written by mothers of many children, some of whom tried for each child and knew when they'd stop, and others of whom left it up to God. So this was my introduction to the idea.
I was initially interested because I want to have lots of children, and I am a Christian, and having never heard of this way of thinking before, I was understandably curious! I wanted to learn more about it and weigh it up for myself. For me, without even reading much further into it, I already could see that it would totally suit my own desires, so if it was GOD'S desire as well, then I was excited!!! :) I knew that it would not be so well suited to Neil's natural desires. I was (and still am) willing to submit to him on the issue if he says no, but he knows that I want to make sure he is totally informed about it from all sides of the "argument" and has read the relevant Bible verses, etc. I don't want him to go, "Yikes! That sounds crazy!!" and that's his basis for saying no! So I have done insane amounts of research and reading and praying, and copied and pasted untold quantities of text from various online discussions and things - it's all there for Neil to see but I know it will be DULL for Neil to wade through all that, so I'm trying to condense it a little! I promise you I am being thoughtful and thorough on this. I'm not thinking like a crazy woman, or making a rash decision, as probably lots of you are thinking by now. I hope the above supports this.
It is not all completely easy for me though. Yes, I DO want more children. It's clear that if we choose to follow the "quiverfull" way of thinking, this desire will be satisfied (ONLY if God actually chooses to bless us with any more children though, obviously). But there are some areas of this way of life that involve me dying to self a little, and having to trust God to help me! It doesn't all totally suit my desires. Timing of children - if I get pregnant very quickly after having a baby, for example, that would not be my planned situation if I were doing it MY way. I also have natural anxieties about the actual parenting of many close-in-age children, obviously! It's not all, "Yayyyy, I wanted a bunch of kids - now here's a nice loophole that allows me to get what I wanted and pretend it's all about God!" There will be self-sacrifice involved for me! It's not easy to be pregnant and then pregnant and then pregnant and then pregnant and then pregnant (etc) with an extra little one to raise, teach, discipline, care for and nurture each time you're pregnant again (and that's not even mentioning all the labours and births which are far from easy!!!). I gladly choose it though, because I feel that God is calling me to it (if my husband will agree).
Re. the question about the hypothetical thing where the Bible tells us to only have SMALL families (good way to ask it!) - yes, I would still want to to what God wants me to do, and have a small family despite my longings for more. I guess in that situation I would have to soak up the kids I have got, and then pray for opportunities to use my heart for mothering in the community or to foster perhaps? I don't know. I would absolutely want what God wants me to do, even if it went against my own desires - although I know that would be MUCH harder to do. I would still choose to do it. I think I said as much in my recent arthursmummy entry, as well as the copied-and-pasted bit above in my answer to Sarah's question. I already said that if we give God the control, and he says, "Okay then, no more babies for you!" then I will have to accept that as God's will. Right now I feel like if he said that, I would feel heartbroken and find it hard, but I would pray for God to change my heart to wholeheartedly accept his will for me as having no more children. And then go from there.
I hope that answers that question. I don't think I am using scripture as an excuse to justify what I want. I think it IS my faith driving me to this decision, more so than my desire for more children, and specifically my faith in God for his plan for MY family. It felt to me when I really started reading about the quiverfull thing, that I was made for that way of life and it for me. It felt like a puzzle piece clicking into place with another piece that I have been looking for, for yeeeears. It was a relief to find it, I will admit! I do take those strong feelings into account when I consider the issue because I have felt (since becoming a Christian) that they are actually God-given, such is the strength and drive of them - and they are not ungodly desires, I weighed that up long ago to be sure. But the two are so closely linked, I suppose - my desire for more children, and the whole quiverfull mindset of potentially having loads by giving up control over the issue to God. So I will keep this last question close to my heart and pray about it. I don't want to be doing something based on my own motives and deceiving myself thinking that it's about God. Thank you for the questions!
Okay this is getting waaaaaay too long, so I will try to speed up! It's getting so late too. Here's the last comment:
"Alice, I too am beginning to be concerned by things you have written recently on both your blogs - it feels to me as though you are using "God" to avoid taking responsibility for your own lives and those of your children. I am not religious but have some christian friends and have asked them about some of the things you have written about - there view was that "God" helps those who helps themselves. Alice I don't want to cause controversy but you need to live for you and your family and teach them about personal responsibility and how to be a strong person and not let things drift in the name of "God"."
This one is hard to respond to clearly without stepping on toes, because it's almost impossible to convince anyone of my God-based reasons for a Christian viewpoint when they are not Christian and can't see my reasoning therefore! I read this one to Neil as well, and both of us are unconvinced about the "God helps those who help themselves" line. That doesn't sit right with me, as a Christian. I need to think on that more, as to why not. But it doesn't. We are called to put our trust in God, to lean on him, and not to put our trust elsewhere (including humanity or ourselves!). He is our source, our strength, and our provision. The Bible does say we need to work hard at whatever we put our hands to, and not be lazy, and such. But I have to say, it doesn't really line up with the Bible to say "God helps those who help themselves". And I go by what the Bible says - that's my measuring stick for what to live by and what not.
I don't think I am avoiding taking responsibility, and that's something I've addressed in the copied-and-pasted answer to Sarah waaaay above (sorry this is getting so long!!). I don't see anything that tells me I am called to take control into my own hands as to when children are born and how many. That would be totally based on my own desires, and not God's (since I haven't let him have a say in it!) surely?
I also disagree with the last sentence because that would be a non-Christian way to live and I'm not one! ;) I do teach my children responsibility - I think that the commenter made a rather generalised statement (that I need to teach my family about personal responsibility) when actually they were getting at the thing that makes them uncomfortable, which is that they feel I am not taking responsibility for family planning. The generalised statement wasn't necessary as it doesn't apply - obviously I teach personal responsibility! Did you mean I should teach my children about the responsibility we have (as adults) to control our own family sizes and the timing of babies? I am thinking you didn't mean that.
I also felt uncomfortable with the first sentence, which essentially accused me of not taking responsibility for my own life and my children's lives ("using" God as an excuse or something). Okay so now that I write it out like that, I feel more offended than uncomfortable! I AM responsible, and most definitely taking responsibility very seriously where my children are concerned. One of my biggest concerns over the possibility of having many children or having them close together (as it already was before all this - I do already have several kids close together by my own "responsible" choice! ;) ) is whether my little ones will be okay with that. The last thing I want is to cause them to suffer for our decision. But again, this is where I can TRUST God. If you are not a Christian you will simply not understand this viewpoint, but God's incredible love for us and desire for our wellbeing is the basis for pretty much all of my "Christian-based" decisions in life. If you don't believe in God or that he loves you more than you can ever fathom loving or being loved, then you won't be able to think this is okay: Since I know that God loves each of my children a million times more than I am even capable of, and desires only the best for them - more than I do even! - leaving the decision as to how many more children we have and when up to God can only mean that this side of things is taken into account more carefully than it would if it were up to me. And the final decision will be made by God who KNOWS what each child needs and how he will respond to the family dynamic as it changes. And not only that, but God isn't restricted by time - he already knows the future, it isn't a what-if to him. I can completely trust him with what is best for my children! In contrast, I could seriously mess up if the decision was left to me! When I am praying about more babies, I make sure to pray that if it is right for the children I already have, that God bless us with more children, that he will please do so! I include their needs, and I take responsibility for what God has blessed me with. I know if God blesses me with more children then he expects me to be responsible for them. That is where I see my responsibility lying when it comes to my children - to love them, nurture them, teach them, protect them, equip them, encourage them, comfort them, and point them to my own source as they get older (God, that is), so that they learn where their strength really lies (in God) - THAT is how I will teach them to be a strong person.
I don't think I am letting things "drift in the name of God"! I'm not sure what is meant by that, but I am guessing it's to do with letting "any old thing" happen as I carelessly have parsnips without regard for whether a baby might be conceived as a result, am I right?
I honestly CAN see how these comments have come about, and the viewpoints behind them. I don't really know what to say to them (apart from the mind-bending amount of waffle I've just splurged, hehehe!) because I am not out to convince anyone, and opinions will differ. I know mine is waaaaay in the minority - I don't know anyone even at my own church who thinks like this about having babies. I am slightly dreading the criticism I may end up receiving from other Christians even. But hey ho. I didn't set out to please others, or even myself (though I admit to being thrilled at the prospect of living this way - is that so wrong, that it makes me happy?), I just set out to really weigh up how I feel God would have us do things.
It's so late now and I'm finally out of steam (I hear the sighs of relief, hehe!). I hope I have not offended anyone with my responses. I actually AM grateful for the comments, because ultimately they show me that the people who wrote them care about me, and that means a lot. The silence beforehand was a bit unsettling! Especially in that if people DID feel that I was wrong/daft/irresponsible, I was squeamish about hearing it from them (I really don't like criticism! Although, who does?!). So, thank you. I hope I answered the questions okay.
On a totally unrelated subject, I think I have ovulated! :) Now I just wait to see how incredibly SHORT my luteal phase will be! It was only 4 days between ovulating and getting my period on the first full cycle after having my other two babies, so that's sort of what I'm expecting. I will update on that incredibly fascinating news as and when! ;)
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